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What is Kleiner Perkins' Success Rate? « Partnerships « Financial
 
Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 10:46am #1
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So much of the EEStory is murky. As AD2 pointed out so eloquently in a recent post, "for every pro there's a con, and for every con there's a pro".

One factor repeatedly asserted by EEStor® True Believers is that Kleiner Perkins is a very well-respected venture capitalist investment firm, and that KP's frequently reported (altho never acknowledged) investment gives a major boost to EEStor®'s credibility.

But does it, really? The claim has been made that KP is so adept at their "due diligence" that the very fact they are willing to invest in a company proves its worth.

But there have been counter claims recently; that just like every other VC firm, most of KP's investment fail. So I decided to do a bit of checking on that, because unlike nearly everything else in the EEStory, this is something for which we *should* be able to get solid facts.

I found the following in an interview of Robert Sutton, author of Weird Ideas that Work:

At Kleiner Perkins, their ability to predict which of the companies that they fund are going to succeed remains terrible. They're no better than anybody else. Maybe they get a little better deal flow, but they still have an incredible failure rate. But what Kleiner Perkins and other great venture capitalists do, they can create confidence in the outside world that a company is going to succeed, and they can create confidence in the management team that they're going to succeed, to the day that they pull the plug on the company.

And they'll tell you, if they can't express incredible confidence in the management or in the company, then they should pull the plug. So, while knowing that 80 or 90 percent of the deals that they're involved in are going to fail, they're still expressing the greatest possible confidence in their success. Because the most well-proven motivational tool on earth, and the cheapest, is the self-fulfilling prophecy. If someone is convinced that they're wonderful and they'll succeed, their odds of actually succeeding go way up.

I like that because it explains so much of the behavior I've seen in Silicon Valley. I've tried to talk about their failure rate to quite a few venture capitalists. They get upset because they don't want to talk about their failures; they think I'm dissing them.

I've got some emails from two different venture capitalists who gave me estimates of their failure rates. They were estimating about 25 percent.

I had a doctoral student look up the failure rates of their companies—the failure rate defined as companies that were funded by them that never went public, or were never sold for what appeared to be, you know, a decent amount of money to a large company, which is the second most favored option. Empirically, they had a 75 to 80 percent failure rate. But they're getting rich off that, and that's the way the game works. And I think that self-delusion is necessary in that business.

I don't at all suggest that this is the final word on the subject. But it's a start. Does anyone else have better documented data on KP's success rate?

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 10:56am #2
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What percent of people's faith here is based on KP's support? 70%? If this post cuts their faith in KP in half, then this post would cause 1/3 of the posters here to go from believer to unbeliever.

So KP only seeks to bring these early companies to IPO, even if they know it's going to fail? 75% failure rate at best.


"EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15 kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles." - EEStor, January 2007

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 11:38am #3
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UPDATED: I made a mistake in the math (should be 67% not 80%) and the corrections have been made below.

The rule of thumb for KPC&B is:

40% of companies go public
20% are sold off at break even or a profit
20% are sold off or liquidated at a lose
20% fail

The only reports I have on this are not open source so I'll need to google around for some links which undoubtedly will not exactly match these numbers.

Also it is worth pointing out that these numbers are for when KPC&B makes their first round of investment in a start up. As time goes by the success rate of the surviving companies starts to go up as most start ups that are going to fail will fail in the first three years. Since EEStor is close or past the three year mark from the time KPC&B invested, the implied success rate based solely on KPC&B track record is now around 67% (corrected from 80%) to go public assuming all eventual losers and outright failures would have happened by now.

Finally what KPC&B also brings to the table is they ensure a proper vetting of the technology has been done. The arguments that EEStor's technology is impossible were never credible to me as KPC&B would otherwise never have invested in EEStor.

The real remaining risk with EEStor are:

IP protection - Without really know how it works there is no way to judge if EEStor truly owns the rights to the technology.

Yield - The pricing data from the recent USPTO trademark and other analyst reports estimates $100 / kWh. At this price EEStor will undoubtedly be very successful, but there is no hard public data on this.

Last edited Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 2:17pm by tvillars


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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 11:55am #4
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failure rate is related to risk/return.
in case of EEstor expected payoff is between few hundreds of billions and trillions.

So failure rate for EEstor-like investment is >99.95%. For KP it is lottery ticket.


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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 12:09pm #5
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Thats the strategy of VC investing. Low hit rate but big returns on the few that work. No surprise that they have many that fail. I would be surprised if they didn't. Mind you there is a difference between a failed project and investing in a fraud. I think what KPBC bring is a level of confidence that it is not a simple case of fraud. what they don't add is that a project might fail for a number of other reasons.


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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 12:31pm #6
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tvillars wrote:

The rule of thumb for KPC&B is:

40% of companies go public
20% are sold off at a profit
20% are sold off or liquidated at a lose
20% fail

Also it is worth pointing out that these numbers are for when KPC&B makes their first round of investment in a start up. As time goes by the success rate of the surviving companies starts to go up as most start ups that are going to fail will fail in the first three years. Since EEStor is close or past the three year mark from the time KPC&B invested, the implied success rate based solely on KPC&B track record is now around 67% (corrected from 80%) to go public assuming all eventual failures would have happened by now.

Interesting thread.

I hope this isn't too tangental, but (as many of you will remember) there is also some added intrigue re the extent to which KP wanted to freeze out Zenn (and if so, why); the extent to which RW going to LightEVs reflected either his own reluctance to go back to Kleiner (perhaps because KP wanted too much of the cake for its money), or the fact that Kleiner wouldn't give it to him until permittivity was announced/certified (in which case, is there a problem here?).

As TV suggests, the fact that Kleiner has not dissociated itself after three years must be encouraging, although on the other hand it hasn't officially associated itself with it (merely deciding not to deny investing in it).

But if it had been Kleiner that had given RW more cash to complete his first production line/s, that would have been even more encouraging. Or would it?

I'd be interested to hear what you guys know and/or summise about all of this stuff TV/B.

Also, I was surprised to see KP ending up ahead of the deal in 60 per cent of cases and public in 40 per cent. That's much higher than I expected - I had them down as 10 per cent successful, although that was just my own assumption. On the basis that TV's stats are correct, EEStor's chances of succeeding and going public just went from 9-1 to 6-4, and if TV's (corrected) "implied success rate" after three years is correct then they are almost certainties at 1-2.

Which doesn't seem realistic quite yet. After all, when is "imminent" really imminent?

And didn't Kleiner once (supposedly) refer to their investment in "an energy storage company" assumed to be EEStor that it was one of their "highest risk, highest return investments" ever?

Last edited Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 10:47pm by AD2


It's time for EEStor to come out of its shell.

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 12:39pm #7
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Pyjamas Before Christ wrote:

Thats the strategy of VC investing. Low hit rate but big returns on the few that work. No surprise that they have many that fail. I would be surprised if they didn't. Mind you there is a difference between a failed project and investing in a fraud. I think what KPBC bring is a level of confidence that it is not a simple case of fraud. what they don't add is that a project might fail for a number of other reasons.

Very well stated, PJBC. That's precisely my understanding. A few of the companies they invest in are so wildly successful that they earn KP considerably more than the amount they lose on vast majority of their investments, which are failures.

I also agree that KP's involvement is a strong indication there's no fraud involved.

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 12:44pm #8
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Pyjamas Before Christ wrote:

Thats the strategy of VC investing. Low hit rate but big returns on the few that work. No surprise that they have many that fail. I would be surprised if they didn't. Mind you there is a difference between a failed project and investing in a fraud. I think what KPBC bring is a level of confidence that it is not a simple case of fraud. what they don't add is that a project might fail for a number of other reasons.

well said. To my way of thinking the continued accusations of "fraud" indicate a emotional investment on the part of debunkers that weakens their credibility.

This is not to say, by any means, that there are not reasons to anticipate failure on other grounds, or that we should neglect the value of the scientific skepticism (Black Swans, after all, rare...) But the allusions to Madoff et al, are just unfortunate hyperbole pretending to be an argument.


Surfing the Energy debate

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 12:49pm #9
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AD2 wrote:

As TV suggests, the fact that Kleiner has not dissociated itself after three years must be encouraging, although on the other hand it hasn't officially associated itself with it (merely deciding not to deny investing in it).

That makes no sense to me. KP has never publicly acknowledged any investment. What could possibly motivate them to say they've disassociated themselves with EEstor®? To do that they'd have to acknowledge the association.

AD2 wrote:

And didn't Kleiner once (supposedly) refer to their investment in "an energy storage company" assumed to be EEStor that it was one of their "highest risk, highest return investments" ever?

That's the rumor. So far as I know, it's still an unconfirmed rumor. The Internet is very good at spreading memes around, both good and bad. Just because this one's been repeated often doesn't make it any more likely to be true than when Tyler Hamilton first reported that rumor. For all I know, every repetition of that originates in someone quoting Tyler Hamilton's article.

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 12:54pm #10
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Lensman wrote:


That's the rumor. So far as I know, it's still an unconfirmed rumor. The Internet is very good at spreading memes around, both good and bad. Just because this one's been repeated often doesn't make it any more likely to be true than when Tyler Hamilton first reported that rumor. For all I know, every repetition of that originates in someone quoting Tyler Hamilton's article.

B said that is not KP (or LM), it is aliens, EEstor was funded by aliens :)


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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 12:58pm #11
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Y_Po wrote:

failure rate is related to risk/return.
in case of EEstor expected payoff is between few hundreds of billions and trillions.

So failure rate for EEstor-like investment is >99.95%. For KP it is lottery ticket.

So your saying there is a .05% chance of success for EEStor? Wow, that's the highest rating I think that you have given them.
I'm pumped now :)


Always listen to experts, They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.
---Robert Heinlein---

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 1:06pm #12
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GaryB wrote:

Y_Po wrote:

failure rate is related to risk/return.
in case of EEstor expected payoff is between few hundreds of billions and trillions.

So failure rate for EEstor-like investment is >99.95%. For KP it is lottery ticket.

So your saying there is a .05% chance of success for EEStor? Wow, that's the highest rating I think that you have given them.
I'm pumped now :)


I was talking about KP

I still give them zero chance.


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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 2:17pm #13
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I made a mistake in the math (should be 67% not 80%) and the corrections have been made to the orginal post.

http://www.theeestory.com/posts/15094


contact: tvillars -at- gmail dot com

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5) component to have specific energy between 550 to 650 Wh/kg

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 2:17pm #14
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The major fallacy in this entire discussion is that EESTor's claims are in any way dependent upon what Kleiner-Perkins does. At this point Kleiner-Perkins actions are irrelevant. We're far beyond the days when they were the only company with an investment in the technology. I'd actually forgotten all about Kleiner-perkins. I advise everyone else to do the same, and not waste their and our time worrying about Kleiner-Perkins.

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 2:41pm #15
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theBike45 wrote:

We're far beyond the days when they were the only company with an investment in the technology.

I question that KP was ever the only company invested in EEStor®. The Paradigm prospectus for Feel Good Cars (later ZENN Motors) dated Sep 6, 2006 said FGC had already made two payments to EEStor® towards an investment of $2.5 million, with two payments remaining. The final payment was announced April 30, 2007.

I don't think it's certain either way, but I think it's entirely possible that FGC made its first payment before KP made an investment. At the very least, there was already a deal in place between FGC and EEStor®.

theBike45 wrote:

At this point Kleiner-Perkins actions are irrelevant.

I see your point, but still I rather suspect that if KP suddenly announced they were pulling the plug on their investment, most people on this forum would think that was *very* relevant.

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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 2:51pm #16
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I think KP was involved but pulled the plug couple of years ago.


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Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 10:00pm #17
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One of the worst investments I made was in VC. The hype talked about above is typical VC. They touted all their companies potential. A few of the successful ones in the portfolios were sold off and the money supposedly was used to aid the others development toward going public. Meanwhile the VC was charging the portfolio excessively high management fees. Until like has been stated, one by one the companies were abandoned, the VC had used 90% of the cash reserve for management fees and the investors got pennies on the dollar. Maybe it works if they hit a Google but what I experienced is probably typical VC.

I have resisted buying ZENN

Last edited Sun, 04 Jan 2009, 10:09pm by Stormn


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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 12:52am #18
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My confusion with that statement "highest risk, highest reward" is this-
They have billions of dollars coming in, they've spent a reported 250 million dollars on the Bloomcell energy unit upto now with still no comercialisation in sight. A couple of million dollars is a fart in the wind for them. Why would they say highest risk? It makes no sense for eestor.

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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 12:59am #19
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dareka1 wrote:

My confusion with that statement "highest risk, highest reward" is this-
They have billions of dollars coming in, they've spent a reported 250 million dollars on the Bloomcell energy unit upto now with still no comercialisation in sight. A couple of million dollars is a fart in the wind for them. Why would they say highest risk? It makes no sense for eestor.

Perhaps they meant risk not in terms of financial amounts, but in terms of likelihood of success. Maybe Kleiner's SME told them it was "impossible" to get the claimed permittivity, so if they decided to fly a $3m kite on it regardless (on the basis that $3m is peanuts) perhaps as a result they would qualify that investment as "highest risk, highest reward".


It's time for EEStor to come out of its shell.

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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 2:41am #20
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"Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested." Richard Weir, July 2008
"Where"s the beef" If the tests were positive we should have heard the results by now.


George Miller

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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 8:12am #21
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George wrote:

"Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested." Richard Weir, July 2008
"Where"s the beef" If the tests were positive we should have heard the results by now.

The following is from Doctor Lyle's Gm-Volt.com blog January 4th, 2009, "Indeed the public has never seen a working prototype of these batteries yet, and there is debate as to whether one actually exists. EEStor CEO Dick Weir has declined to answer that question when I’ve posed it to him on multiple occasions.
1)Why does DW decline to answer Doctor Lyle's question?
2)Why does DW confirm to B there are working prototype?
3)How does B know "Dick Weir and his team have not allowed for a public demonstration of an EESU"?
It looks like to me the NDA applies to Doctor Lyle but not to B.


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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 8:21am #22
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Steve321 wrote:

George wrote:

"Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested." Richard Weir, July 2008
"Where"s the beef" If the tests were positive we should have heard the results by now.

The following is from Doctor Lyle's Gm-Volt.com blog January 4th, 2009, "Indeed the public has never seen a working prototype of these batteries yet, and there is debate as to whether one actually exists. EEStor CEO Dick Weir has declined to answer that question when I’ve posed it to him on multiple occasions.
1)Why does DW decline to answer Doctor Lyle's question?
2)Why does DW confirm to B there are working prototype?
3)How does B know "Dick Weir and his team have not allowed for a public demonstration of an EESU"?
It looks like to me the NDA applies to Doctor Lyle but not to B.

1) Ask DW or DL
2) Why wouldn't he? Or DW likes B. ;-)
3) The same way you know--because it would be major news otherwise. This does not imply that a private demonstration has not occurred.

You forget that Carl Watkins also spoke of prototypes. And if prototypes are important to you, you should take a closer look at Lockheed's armor. Ask yourself a basic question: what types of energy storage would be safe to include in armor and why? Call up a body armor expert...


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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 8:24am #23
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eestorblog wrote:

Steve321 wrote:

George wrote:

"Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested." Richard Weir, July 2008
"Where"s the beef" If the tests were positive we should have heard the results by now.

The following is from Doctor Lyle's Gm-Volt.com blog January 4th, 2009, "Indeed the public has never seen a working prototype of these batteries yet, and there is debate as to whether one actually exists. EEStor CEO Dick Weir has declined to answer that question when I’ve posed it to him on multiple occasions."
1)Why does DW decline to answer Doctor Lyle's question?
2)Why does DW confirm to B there are working prototype?
3)How does B know "Dick Weir and his team have not allowed for a public demonstration of an EESU"?
It looks like to me the NDA applies to Doctor Lyle but not to B.

1) Ask DW or DL
2) Why wouldn't he? Or DW likes B. ;-)
3) The same way you know--because it would be major news otherwise. This does not imply that a private demonstration has not occurred.

You forget that Carl Watkins also spoke of prototypes. And if prototypes are important to you, you should take a closer look at Lockheed's armor. Ask yourself a basic question: what types of energy storage would be safe to include in armor and why? Call up a body armor expert...

I report, you report let the public decide.
B=DW???

Last edited Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 8:32am by Steve321


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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 8:35am #24
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Steve321 wrote:

eestorblog wrote:

Steve321 wrote:

George wrote:

"Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested." Richard Weir, July 2008
"Where"s the beef" If the tests were positive we should have heard the results by now.

The following is from Doctor Lyle's Gm-Volt.com blog January 4th, 2009, "Indeed the public has never seen a working prototype of these batteries yet, and there is debate as to whether one actually exists. EEStor CEO Dick Weir has declined to answer that question when I’ve posed it to him on multiple occasions."
1)Why does DW decline to answer Doctor Lyle's question?
2)Why does DW confirm to B there are working prototype?
3)How does B know "Dick Weir and his team have not allowed for a public demonstration of an EESU"?
It looks like to me the NDA applies to Doctor Lyle but not to B.

1) Ask DW or DL
2) Why wouldn't he? Or DW likes B. ;-)
3) The same way you know--because it would be major news otherwise. This does not imply that a private demonstration has not occurred.

You forget that Carl Watkins also spoke of prototypes. And if prototypes are important to you, you should take a closer look at Lockheed's armor. Ask yourself a basic question: what types of energy storage would be safe to include in armor and why? Call up a body armor expert...

I report, you report let the public decide.
B=DW???

get the facts straight...certain questions are less interesting when all the facts are on the table...


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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 8:40am #25
Steve321
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eestorblog wrote:

Steve321 wrote:

eestorblog wrote:

Steve321 wrote:

George wrote:

"Prototypes have been built and prototypes have been tested." Richard Weir, July 2008
"Where"s the beef" If the tests were positive we should have heard the results by now.

The following is from Doctor Lyle's Gm-Volt.com blog January 4th, 2009, "Indeed the public has never seen a working prototype of these batteries yet, and there is debate as to whether one actually exists. EEStor CEO Dick Weir has declined to answer that question when I’ve posed it to him on multiple occasions."
1)Why does DW decline to answer Doctor Lyle's question?
2)Why does DW confirm to B there are working prototype?
3)How does B know "Dick Weir and his team have not allowed for a public demonstration of an EESU"?
It looks like to me the NDA applies to Doctor Lyle but not to B.

1) Ask DW or DL
2) Why wouldn't he? Or DW likes B. ;-)
3) The same way you know--because it would be major news otherwise. This does not imply that a private demonstration has not occurred.

You forget that Carl Watkins also spoke of prototypes. And if prototypes are important to you, you should take a closer look at Lockheed's armor. Ask yourself a basic question: what types of energy storage would be safe to include in armor and why? Call up a body armor expert...

I report, you report let the public decide.
B=DW???

get the facts straight...certain questions are less interesting when all the facts are on the table...


The biggest question on the table was if EESTOR was going to deliver an EESU to ZENN by end of 2008...according to you that was a positive fact. So maybe you should get your facts straight before giving advise to others ;).


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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 8:12pm #26
da
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tvillars wrote:

UPDATED: I made a mistake in the math (should be 67% not 80%) and the corrections have been made below.
The rule of thumb for KPC&B is:
40% of companies go public
20% are sold off at break even or a profit
20% are sold off or liquidated at a lose
20% fail
The only reports I have on this are not open source so I'll need to google around for some links which ..............tes $100 / kWh. At this price EEStor will undoubtedly be very successful, but there is no hard public data on this.

That's not a very balanced quote considering they've recently shifted their focus to green energy and have yet to hit a jackpot in the field, from what I gather-
http://tinyurl.com/5stp6l
It seems that that was their average up until recently, but they've changed to things more green and it's a wait and see policy on whether things are going to be as successful as before. If they are, they will be very, very successful..

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Mon, 05 Jan 2009, 10:18pm #27
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dareka1 wrote:

That's not a very balanced quote considering they've recently shifted their focus to green energy and have yet to hit a jackpot in the field, from what I gather-
http://tinyurl.com/5stp6l
It seems that that was their average up until recently, but they've changed to things more green and it's a wait and see policy on whether things are going to be as successful as before. If they are, they will be very, very successful..

The standard disclaimer is always past performance doesn't guarantee future results. But a big advantage Kleiner has over almost all other VCs is their reputation alone can open doors for their companies that would normally stay closed. This means even a marginal concept has a much better chance of succeeding under Kleiner than almost anywhere else. Kleiner is bombarded with so many proposals that that just getting an interview is a badge of honor amoung start ups.

That said you do have a point that green is a new field for Kleiner so we'll have to see how they do.


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