TheEEStory.com

Many people want to know how many solar panels it would take to fill a 52kwh energy storage unit.

A better way to look at it is how many solar panels would it take to generate enough electricity for an EV to go 250 miles per week.

This assumes the E.V will get 250 miles or 400 kilometers on 52kwh of electricity.

System requires a grid tied inverter which converts direct current to alternating current and ten 200 watt solar panels.

Grid tied system eliminates the need for a second energy storage unit at home to store solar energy.

The solar panels feed the grid 52kwh of power per week on a yearly average. The grid then feeds you back the energy day or night to be used from any standard household outlet 110v or 220v.

Example uses an average zip code of 4 sun light hours. (takes into account sunny days, cloudy days, long summer and short winter sun hours and averages them out)

10 200 watt solar panels = 2,000 watts

4 (sun hours) x 2000watts = 8000 watts per average day

7 days per week x 8000 watts = 56khw

Allowing system loss of 7% and your at 52 kwh.

Once you have paid off the system from an ROI standpoint you have free clean fuel for the rest of your days.

I looked this cost up on line. (I'm sure others are available closer to 2.0 kw)

Cost included panels, racking, and inverter. Additional costs for a non do it your selfer would be labor, and permits for a grid tied system.

In the United States a 30% federal tax credit would apply. Also there are additional state and local utility rebates.

2.6kW Online Solar Grid Tie System

Price:$11,505.00

After rebates and credits depending on your area the costs could be closer to $6,000.00

Think of it like owning your own gas station that cost you $6,000 dollars and has an endless supply of gas.

When a practical EV is available the I.C.E is dead.

I know a about the solar industry from sizing a system to future building integrated PV products the world is mostly unaware of and many points in between. The data above is accurate.

Last edited Wed, 01 Jul 2009, 12:41pm by Eenigma

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That's a lot lower cost than estimates I've found for my area. Most of the info I'm finding suggest 11K or more *after* tax incentives are added in.

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chance20_m wrote:

That's a lot lower cost than estimates I've found for my area. Most of the info I'm finding suggest 11K or more *after* tax incentives are added in.

I just went on the interenet...I used Mr Solar I'll find a link and add it.

http://www.mrsolar.com/

FYI..........I have no business affiliation with the above link it is just an example.

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The watts required will vary quite a bit. Toronto would require a 2.5 kW system during an average year, while Tucscon, Arizona only needs about 1.6 kW.
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/PVWATTS/...
I have found that these numbers tend to overestimate the actual production, so the system size would probably need to be a bit bigger than I have indicated.

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And you may drive less or more. So is it better to over-harvest for the worst case scenario or aim lower and still be tied to the grid?

I have found that as our teenagers have moved on my electric bill has dropped. Taking a job closer or farther would also change personal demand. This is where the microgrid could be useful.

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Solar schmolar, gonna hook that bad boy up to a exercise bike! =)

Don't forget you could also add a small wind turbine to offset off-sun hours. Also, replace all CRT TV's with LED or high-performance LCD (or OLED, if you're rich!)

I assume my power bill has increased since finding this forum. :(

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Good Luck Generic, with the ammount of extra food you will have to eat to keep that thing running, its much cheaper to use gas ;)

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Have you folks seen this stuff yet?

University of Toronto was doing something similar in 2005, but I haven't heard about it since.

http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/02/04/solar-panel...

It would be quite nice if the entire surface of each body panel (even the underside) could be coated with this stuff. In fact, you could probably even embed it into the windows and get some energy, possibly even some tinting effect.

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Sold! So how big are the 20 panels that I'll need to install on the garage roof for 2 recharges a week (with no spare capacity). Maybe I should go for 25 panels just in case?

Damn.. just had a thought ...need a garage first...

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mjtimber wrote:

The watts required will vary quite a bit. Toronto would require a 2.5 kW system during an average year, while Tucscon, Arizona only needs about 1.6 kW.
http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/codes_algs/PVWATTS/...
I have found that these numbers tend to overestimate the actual production, so the system size would probably need to be a bit bigger than I have indicated.

MJtimber,

I agree:

I do want to point out that in the original post I said I took and average zip code for sunlight hours. I believe I took 4 hours.

You pointed out 2.5kw for toronto and 1.6kw for Arizona.

Two ends of the spectrum and without looking you may be correct for those 2 locations. I was just trying to be universal. If you really want to get detailed....roof pitch, roof angle, shading or ground mounting options all come to mind.

The post is fact based which may be a nice break for all of us to not have to speculate. The system, pricing, tax credits, and added policies are all fact based as well.

I ask everyone to think of this. I if you could spend $6,000 dollars and have free home refueling for the next umptine years just how huge is that?

Do an R.O.I on a one time fuel cost of $6,000.

200,000 miles = .03 cents per mile.

Another benifit is you are paying off a system. Adding a home refueling station will add how much to property value?

I actually know what that number is based upon what value a PV system adds at resale. Would you pay a little extra on mortgage payment if you wouldn't have to buy gas for your car.

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I can tell you I got a quote for a 2.4 kW system for my area and the cost AFTER tax rebates was to be ~15k

That was predicted to generate 5,000+ kW-Hr a year for me.

I have decided to wait to see if panel prices come down - go nanosolar!

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Eenigma wrote:

Another benifit is you are paying off a system. Adding a home refueling station will add how much to property value?

I actually know what that number is based upon what value a PV system adds at resale. Would pay a little extra on mortgage payment if you wouldn't have to buy gas for your car.

Not to mention the savings is after tax dollars and you can borrow against your home and get the tax right off too. PV is coming our way in a big way if we have cheap reliable storage.

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X_Y_Z wrote:

I can tell you I got a quote for a 2.4 kW system for my area and the cost AFTER tax rebates was to be ~15k

That was predicted to generate 5,000+ kW-Hr a year for me.

I have decided to wait to see if panel prices come down - go nanosolar!

Just click on this link and you'll see the pricing I gave is 100% accurate.

http://www.mrsolar.com/

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If I read that link right, I see the issue, your link is for equipment ONLY. What about installer cost? I talked with my electric company and they required liscened dealers to do the install and fill out the grid tie paperwork. That included the CA rebate form.

I don't think I could actually install the system msyelf, even if I wanted to, and tie it the grid.

Either way, MOST folks wouldn't want to install themself, so the actual cost will be double what you suggest.

Last edited Wed, 01 Jul 2009, 2:32pm by X_Y_Z

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Eenigma

I find it so sad.
I would genuinely, truly, love solar to "work".

Conventional juice @ 15¢ / kWh, 52 kWh costs $7.80 .
$405.60, per 52 week year.

Compared to $11,500 (retail) for components for a 2.6 kW system ($4.42/W).
Without shipping.
Without permits.
Without professional (electrician) installation.
Probably closer to $15,000?
Governmental rebates and credits sometimes aren't all they seem.

5 year CDs are currently offering 3% .

Invest $15K @ 3% .
Use the interest to pay the annual incremental electric bill.
At the end of 5 years, there's still the $15K, cash.
Then re-evaluate solar.

At ~$5/W (total system), PV just isn't economically viable, IMHO. :(
Get a lot closer to ~10¢/W, for the receiver hardware, and solar will be a winner.
In all likelihood, though, economies of scale will still favor utility grid supply.
Rather than per individual home / building.

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From all the installers I talked to in May, its closer to $9-$10 per watt here, before rebates.

A 2.4 to 2.6 kW system will realistically cost between 20-26K installed. Gov rebates will subtract off that... but you also get what you pay for. Cheaper solar panels can be junk.

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nekote wrote:

Eenigma

I find it so sad.
I would genuinely, truly, love solar to "work".

Conventional juice @ 15¢ / kWh, 52 kWh costs $7.80 .
$405.60, per 52 week year.

Compared to $11,500 (retail) for components for a 2.6 kW system ($4.42/W).
Without shipping.
Without permits.
Without professional (electrician) installation.
Probably closer to $15,000?
Governmental rebates and credits sometimes aren't all they seem.

5 year CDs are currently offering 3% .

Invest $15K @ 3% .
Use the interest to pay the annual incremental electric bill.
At the end of 5 years, there's still the $15K, cash.
Then re-evaluate solar.

At ~$5/W (total system), PV just isn't economically viable, IMHO. :(
Get a lot closer to ~10¢/W, for the receiver hardware, and solar will be a winner.
In all likelihood, though, economies of scale will still favor utility grid supply.
Rather than per individual home / building.

Nekote,

I hope you have the time to re address this. I would like to see your calculations with a few additional factors brought in.

Your a very close on your estimate of $15,000 once it is said and done. The company I work for does residential install costs at about $8 per watt all inclusive before tax credits and rebates. That would be a non do it yourselfer. (DIY)

The Federal tax credit is real. As of this year it is 30% and no longer capped at a maximum of $2,000. Here in California the rebate is real also. So real that the customer can tell us to deduct the rebate dollars from the contract and let us take it or if they choose (they never do) they can get the check.

Out of pocket expenses after the fed tax credit is about 50% of the cost and that is real.

Now think about this. Instead of paying your local utility company the money it costs to fill an energy storage device you are paying yourself/loan back. There is light at the end of tunnel.

Two other caveats

1. Your home value would go up at resale if it came with an EV refill station correct?

2. While utility rates increase the cost of a fixed loan stays the same. So really you have to go back and look at your 3% CD savings example and recalculate that based upon your average annual electrical energy increases. Nationwide they have run 6% over the last 40 years.

I am limited in scope to California (License) and I am limited in knowledge to only the California rebate system.

Not trying to sell anything to anyone here. I do wish people would examine their options in their respective locations. In the United States and elsewhere governments are throwing money at homeowners to go green.

I am very much interested to see how Nekote's would numbers look based upon that additional information.

What I would like to sell is system like this tied to EV recharge stations sold thru Zenn dealers.

Where's Nano Carbons when I need him?

It makes sense if you plan on being in your home for awhile and you have the federal tax appetite. Of course since this example is for an EV we'll need a viable EESU also.

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I understand Nanosolar limited themselves to large scales for their initial runs. Wonder if a neighborhood association would fit the bill?

neighborhood association vs the HOA

sell tickets to that fight on pay per view!

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Generic wrote:

I understand Nanosolar limited themselves to large scales for their initial runs. Wonder if a neighborhood association would fit the bill?

Generic, I don't believe Nano Carbons and nanosolar are one in the same.

(Not 100% on this but I'll give it try).

I believe Nano Solar has promised all their current supplies to investors which is a reason why prices have not dropped, supply and demand. I have spoken with several product managers in the solar cell manufacturing business. I was I need of specific type of PV coated film. Believe me when I say these new start ups have orders well into the future. They are not exactly chomping at the bit for business. I found a supplier only by contacting the company that sells equipment to make the thin film cells. The owner of that company out of Europe put me in touch with a new start up that does want new business.

I believe what Nano Carbons said is he is starting a new company with something like 40% efficient cells. That is a huge leap and I hope he pulls it off.

Wonder if a neighborhood association would fit the bill?

Neighborhood associations are often interested in solar to power common area's. You'll have no weight with panel manufactures. Best bet is good solar outfit that handles commercial installs.

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Eenigma - you said $8/watt. At $8 per watt, a 2.6 kW system would be $20,800, not 15k as you suggest.

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X_Y_Z wrote:

Eenigma - you said $8/watt. At $8 per watt, a 2.6 kW system would be $20,800, not 15k as you suggest.

Yes I can see the confusion XYZ, (cuz I helped cause it LOL)

I started with this as a DIY install.

2.6kW Online Solar Grid Tie System

Price:$11,505.00

After rebates and credits depending on your area the costs could be closer to $6,000.00

Nekote's numbers were pretty close if you paid someone for the fee's he mentioned. The original example was not pricing just wattage required 2kw.

For Nekote I was thinking 2kw system x $8 = $16,000.

I went on an internet site and found a system that said 2.6kw for $11,505.00. That was just show the costs and later I provided a link "reluctanly". I am thinking someone is going to accuse me of selling something but I have nothing to with them it's an example. Feel free to hunt around.

XYZ.....ironically a system where I live would cost less than $16,000 installed at $8 per watt. The reason is sun hours in southern california exceed the average I used in the example.

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I am still going to wait for cheaper panels. 16k is still a huge sum of money.

Plus SCE won't pay you if you produce more than you use, which I don't think is fair. But that's aother issue.

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So if Cali gas remains static at ~$3 / gallon, if you had an ICE powered car that ran at 30 miles/gallon, you would have to drive ~115,000 miles before you have spent the cost of the install using Eenigma's prices (i.e. without a storage device for when the car's not charging).

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trick wrote:

So if Cali gas remains static at ~$3 / gallon, if you had an ICE powered car that ran at 30 miles/gallon, you would have to drive ~115,000 miles before you have spent the cost of the install using Eenigma's prices (i.e. without a storage device for when the car's not charging).

I have a Tahoe......30 mph.......LOL

$66 to go 300 miles.

If I could have bought a gift card that would have given me free fill ups forever for the price of $8,000 years ago I would be laughing everytime gas went up.

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Well, for a Tahoe, you're not going to get 250 miles out of 52 kWh. Probably more like 500 Wh/mile, or a little over 100 miles. Better double that gas card...

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Eenigma wrote:

chance20_m wrote:

That's a lot lower cost than estimates I've found for my area. Most of the info I'm finding suggest 11K or more *after* tax incentives are added in.

I just went on the interenet...I used Mr Solar I'll find a link and add it.

http://www.mrsolar.com/

FYI..........I have no business affiliation with the above link it is just an example.

EEnigma:

Excellent post. I'd like to add that I would personally be prepared to pay somewhat more simply based on how I value convenience and independence. Although my recollection about average functional life of a PV array is about 30 years and not "forever", it might as well be forever for me since I'm 48, so yeah, it's the same thing for me :)

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mjtimber wrote:

Well, for a Tahoe, you're not going to get 250 miles out of 52 kWh. Probably more like 500 Wh/mile, or a little over 100 miles. Better double that gas card...

MJTimber, True enough but not everyone drives the beast.

Intersting subject you bring up. One the first post of the topic I wrote this. "When a practical EV is available then I.C.E is dead."

Practical to most I "think" means similar range and similar on the road fill ups. To me practical also means something bigger than one of those golf cart looking EV's.
We have kids and my wife and I both need real vehicles.
I would like dual 52kw eesu's in an SUV. Sell like hotcakes. Every soccer mom would have one as well.

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No doubt. We're all tied to our vehicles, whether we like it or not...

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