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OT:Good Journalism « Open Forum « News, Reviews & Misc
 
Sun, 04 Sep 2011, 5:43pm #31
zawy
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Bende2
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Last visit: Tue, 19 Feb 2013
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The telescope guy, lack of sound, and witnesses stating that it moved really slow suggests that they were small planes flying at a high altitude. I would not discount witnesses saying it was close to the ground, but a good formation at a height and separation that you have never seen before may have given the impression of being low to the ground. A more serious problem with this theory is that the lights were really bright, which leads back to a flare theory. The problem with the flare theory is that they last up to 2 minutes according to spec sheet, not 40, and they do not zoom off in the distance.

To correct something I said above: the flares were in a group of 7, and certainly not a V shape, but a downward sloping as they were dropped in sequence. The lasted for 2 minutes in the video.

This is a good article from the local newspaper which shows there is a lot of contradicting information (including the telescope).
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1997-06-26/news/...

Here's a 2008 documentary about the pheonix lights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7KqIg_a6JY

It's interesting that people can't figure out what it is.


"EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15 kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles." - EEStor, January 2007

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Sun, 04 Sep 2011, 5:44pm #32
eestorblog
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zawy wrote:

The governor seemed to feel guilty about not reporting his sighting in the first place and making fun of people who believed it was a spacecraft. He said "news", not simply "TV". The first sighting was at 8:20 in the north by a policeman. The last sighting was 9:00 pm in Tuscon, according to Nightline. Both the north and south viewers spoke of how large it was at their location, so that blows a part of my theory out of the water. One of them specifically spoke about the color of the body. And several interviewees said they saw it accelerate away.

What the governor said earlier in the piece was that the sighting was all over the radio and the tv. Also, go to 29:10. That's where the governor starts to tell his story. This is what he says:

On March 13, I was having dinner with my family. We had the TV on and I was well aware of the news about the UFO. So I said I'm going to jump in my car and I'm gonna go down Lincoln drive past Squaw Peak and see if i can see what's going on. When I got here, there were people milling around just enjoying the park. and uh I was here for probably 5 or 10 minutes and somebody said "look at that, look at that." And out to the northwest, this great big massive craft, probably around 3 or 4 thousand feet took out a whole chunk of the sky and you could see other aircraft in the distance. but airplanes look like little toothpicks compared to the size of this craft. And it came right at us, made not a sound, and just moved almost sort of gently and smoothly, not that fast, it just glided over Squaw Peak and we had a magnificent view of it silhouetted.

The narrator then states he saw it for about 1 minute.

His observation took place at Sumida Park.


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Sun, 04 Sep 2011, 6:21pm #33
eestorblog
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I liked the first 3 minutes of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=u1MPWdm...

the clip with the videographer/photographer guys begins at the end of this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmN3WGeOzXQ

In a nutshell, the guy being interviewed was in charge of filming a rocket go through all 3 stages. they got the film home and when it reached about 14,000mph, a disc flights into view, shoots the missile with a ray and then flies away.

bit conspiratorial...


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http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Sun, 04 Sep 2011, 6:50pm #34
Shere Khaan
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ee-tom wrote:

B, your giving such weight to these accounts is on par with your sig, but shows lack of understanding of the real world.

People make very very bad observers. We all fit observations into expectations. The neuroscience is clear.

Ee-tom, you should check out the Stephenville, Texas, incident from 2008, it is the most interesting UFO case study in many years. It follows all the classic patterns of unknown phenomenon with country hicks, reliable observers, military cover-up, subsequent hoaxes, dramatic shows and finally some amazing radar data that confirms there was a UFO in the area that matched the witness reports of location and time.

People do make bad observers, but in some cases there is other evidence that backs up that they did indeed see something, and that something was not anything normal.

Don't research this phenomena like UFO means flying saucer or interplanetary craft; just assume it means unidentified flying object and you'll realise a lot of these best cases are real and very odd.

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Sun, 04 Sep 2011, 9:30pm #35
Y_Po
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Zawy_y_go
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eestorblog wrote:

Y_Po wrote:

And that triangular UFO with lights they like to show. I think I read about it many years ago, it was determined to be a fabrication.

Did you watch the videos? You seem to have not watched them.


Yes, I did.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Sun, 04 Sep 2011, 10:10pm #36
austinbigballa
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Last visit: Thu, 09 Feb 2012
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Shere Khaan wrote:

ee-tom wrote:

B, your giving such weight to these accounts is on par with your sig, but shows lack of understanding of the real world.

People make very very bad observers. We all fit observations into expectations. The neuroscience is clear.

Ee-tom, you should check out the Stephenville, Texas, incident from 2008, it is the most interesting UFO case study in many years. It follows all the classic patterns of unknown phenomenon with country hicks, reliable observers, military cover-up, subsequent hoaxes, dramatic shows and finally some amazing radar data that confirms there was a UFO in the area that matched the witness reports of location and time.

People do make bad observers, but in some cases there is other evidence that backs up that they did indeed see something, and that something was not anything normal.

Don't research this phenomena like UFO means flying saucer or interplanetary craft; just assume it means unidentified flying object and you'll realise a lot of these best cases are real and very odd.

Yeah Stephenville is crazy. I watched that whole story unfold. Talk about obvious cover up of something. Air Force changed it's story a couple of weeks after the incident. The funny thing is that it changed it's story to actually corroborate the testimonies of witnesses. Not saying it was alien, but Air Force jets were scrambled to chase, and/or fly "with" an airborne object that was witnessed by several different people in different locations.

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Sun, 04 Sep 2011, 10:46pm #37
Y_Po
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Zawy_y_go
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And nobody took a picture in Stephenville?


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 10:13am #38
eestorblog
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Y_Po wrote:

And nobody took a picture in Stephenville?

You said this about Phoenix too. So, you're witnessing an astonishing event that maybe lasts for a minute and in your world, you forsake that to go grab a camera?

No, if you have a camera and the oppt strikes, then you take a photo. also phoenix happened in 1997...there are photos but they aren't great. people didnt have cameras on their phones the way they do now. as you said, you dont even have a cell phone.


------------------
www.nyumbani.org

http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 10:20am #39
Y_Po
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Zawy_y_go
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Phoenix lights video is pretty crappy and the guy with a telescope identified them as planes flying in formation. End of story.


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 11:29am #40
GS
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I forgot to comment about journalism ... A journalist's job is to report, not to prove a point. From that viewpoint, the first video (the only I saw) is bad journalism since the creator did not interview citizens who thought it was NOT a UFO, and did not discuss the fact that the only video of the event out there is a video of the flares, thus implying that it was flares. NOT a balanced review and BAD journalism.

Nowadays, with camera equipped mobile phones, there is NO excuse not to take any pictures. No good pictures in 60 years of UFO sightings? This is a BIG issue, and everyone is aware of it. Thus, most people would be thinking at the sighting of a UFO "I got to get a picture!"

It is common for people to be rational on one subject and irrational on another, let's hope it is true of B as well.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 11:49am #41
farmEEr
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GS wrote:

I forgot to comment about journalism ... A journalist's job is to report, not to prove a point. From that viewpoint, the first video (the only I saw) is bad journalism since the creator did not interview citizens who thought it was NOT a UFO, and did not discuss the fact that the only video of the event out there is a video of the flares, thus implying that it was flares. NOT a balanced review and BAD journalism.

Nowadays, with camera equipped mobile phones, there is NO excuse not to take any pictures. No good pictures in 60 years of UFO sightings? This is a BIG issue, and everyone is aware of it. Thus, most people would be thinking at the sighting of a UFO "I got to get a picture!"

It is common for people to be rational on one subject and irrational on another, let's hope it is true of B as well.

I'm sorry, since when does every issue have a valid counterargument? Someone cannot report that 2+2 = 4 because they cannot find someone to prove it is not? And if they could, they should be given the same amount of credence? They are reporting the facts and summarizing the conclusions that they drew from those facts. The problem is most people cannot separate the facts and data from the opinions and conclusions of others. sheep


They're not building pet rocks in there.
eesu.farmeer@gmail.com

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 12:17pm #42
eestorblog
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This is interesting. the FBI archives have a copy of the UFO reporting forms...shows all the info tidbids they were looking for when reporting incidents.

http://vault.fbi.gov/UFO/UFO%20Part%206%20of%20...

see page 52-53.

http://vault.fbi.gov/UFO

the reports captured in these files range from crazy crackpot (they are manufacturing discs under a mountain in mexico) to J. Edgar Hoover sending a note to the AF indicating a trusted reliable FBI source saw a disc in California. Head of the FBI reporting a UFO. Pretty interesting.


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www.nyumbani.org

http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 12:19pm #43
GS
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Last visit: Fri, 08 Feb 2013
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farmEEr wrote:

GS wrote:

I forgot to comment about journalism ... A journalist's job is to report, not to prove a point. From that viewpoint, the first video (the only I saw) is bad journalism since the creator did not interview citizens who thought it was NOT a UFO, and did not discuss the fact that the only video of the event out there is a video of the flares, thus implying that it was flares. NOT a balanced review and BAD journalism.

Nowadays, with camera equipped mobile phones, there is NO excuse not to take any pictures. No good pictures in 60 years of UFO sightings? This is a BIG issue, and everyone is aware of it. Thus, most people would be thinking at the sighting of a UFO "I got to get a picture!"

It is common for people to be rational on one subject and irrational on another, let's hope it is true of B as well.

I'm sorry, since when does every issue have a valid counterargument? Someone cannot report that 2+2 = 4 because they cannot find someone to prove it is not? And if they could, they should be given the same amount of credence? They are reporting the facts and summarizing the conclusions that they drew from those facts. The problem is most people cannot separate the facts and data from the opinions and conclusions of others. sheep

The creator of the documentary did not even ask "why are there no pictures of the UFO with so many observers?". That's because he did not WANT to ask that question. He wanted to prove that there are UFO's. Biased, and BAD journalism, if you even can call it journalism.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 12:23pm #44
eestorblog
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GS wrote:

I forgot to comment about journalism ... A journalist's job is to report, not to prove a point. From that viewpoint, the first video (the only I saw) is bad journalism since the creator did not interview citizens who thought it was NOT a UFO, and did not discuss the fact that the only video of the event out there is a video of the flares, thus implying that it was flares. NOT a balanced review and BAD journalism.

Nowadays, with camera equipped mobile phones, there is NO excuse not to take any pictures. No good pictures in 60 years of UFO sightings? This is a BIG issue, and everyone is aware of it. Thus, most people would be thinking at the sighting of a UFO "I got to get a picture!"

It is common for people to be rational on one subject and irrational on another, let's hope it is true of B as well.

I didn't offer the documentaries themselves as the journalistic accomplishment although they aren't bad. I feel like the underlying research by Leslie Kean over 10 years--which forms the basis of the documentaries--is good. Her goal of examining the most credible sources/investigations and leaving the individual viewer incidents out...was useful.

There are plenty of photos and videos of UFO's. There appear to be good ones too if you believe the guy whose job it was to film the atlas rocket go through three stages of launch...

Yes, with more cameras, there is definitely going to be more evidence available for scrutiny.

I agree a journalist's job is to assemble pro/con views on a topic when they are available. This lets people make up their own minds on what the facts mean. But I'm also interested in the opinion of the journalist...since they assembled the facts and rarely present all of them publicly.


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www.nyumbani.org

http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 12:25pm #45
eestorblog
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GS wrote:

farmEEr wrote:

GS wrote:

I forgot to comment about journalism ... A journalist's job is to report, not to prove a point. From that viewpoint, the first video (the only I saw) is bad journalism since the creator did not interview citizens who thought it was NOT a UFO, and did not discuss the fact that the only video of the event out there is a video of the flares, thus implying that it was flares. NOT a balanced review and BAD journalism.

Nowadays, with camera equipped mobile phones, there is NO excuse not to take any pictures. No good pictures in 60 years of UFO sightings? This is a BIG issue, and everyone is aware of it. Thus, most people would be thinking at the sighting of a UFO "I got to get a picture!"

It is common for people to be rational on one subject and irrational on another, let's hope it is true of B as well.

I'm sorry, since when does every issue have a valid counterargument? Someone cannot report that 2+2 = 4 because they cannot find someone to prove it is not? And if they could, they should be given the same amount of credence? They are reporting the facts and summarizing the conclusions that they drew from those facts. The problem is most people cannot separate the facts and data from the opinions and conclusions of others. sheep

The creator of the documentary did not even ask "why are there no pictures of the UFO with so many observers?". That's because he did not WANT to ask that question. He wanted to prove that there are UFO's. Biased, and BAD journalism, if you even can call it journalism.

Are you talking about the Phoenix incident? There are photos....just few good ones.


------------------
www.nyumbani.org

http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 12:31pm #46
hoarybat
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Last visit: Fri, 12 Apr 2013
Posts: 862

Mid Oct. 1979 Norton Pond Vermont at my Dad's waterfront remote pond/camp. Went up to close the camp for the season with 4 of my friends and do a little fishing. 5pm with clear skies just past sunset with plenty of daylight out. Hard for us to talk about this with anyone other than ourselves but I'll do it here as an outlet. This thing rocked us to our cores. We were on the dock pout fishing and saw a craft/UFO come over the mountains which surround the pond and it quickly descended into the near center of our section of Norton pond and came to a complete halt hovering about 100ft. above the water approximately 750-1000 yards from us. We dropped our rods and just stared at it. It was completely silent. It hovered in place for about 90 seconds which seemed like an eternity to us. It then sped to the other end of the pond and stopped again hovering for another few seconds, went straight up about 750 ft or so to mountain top height and went off in 1 second and was gone. You skeptics can shove it with your negative replies to this if you have them and I don't give a damn about your opinion because we know what we saw. It was not conventional but something not man made and has changed my/our thinking and thought process about the universe and probabilities of life in the universe forever. It is possible these UFO's are bending space/time allowing them to get to our planet in no time. Now leave me alone for disclosing this. This is hard for me.


Lensman Scale: 2 taking too long based on earlier promise/claims.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 12:31pm #47
GS
EErudite
Registered: Dec, 2009
Last visit: Fri, 08 Feb 2013
Posts: 74

eestorblog wrote:

GS wrote:

farmEEr wrote:

GS wrote:

I forgot to comment about journalism ... A journalist's job is to report, not to prove a point. From that viewpoint, the first video (the only I saw) is bad journalism since the creator did not interview citizens who thought it was NOT a UFO, and did not discuss the fact that the only video of the event out there is a video of the flares, thus implying that it was flares. NOT a balanced review and BAD journalism.

Nowadays, with camera equipped mobile phones, there is NO excuse not to take any pictures. No good pictures in 60 years of UFO sightings? This is a BIG issue, and everyone is aware of it. Thus, most people would be thinking at the sighting of a UFO "I got to get a picture!"

It is common for people to be rational on one subject and irrational on another, let's hope it is true of B as well.

I'm sorry, since when does every issue have a valid counterargument? Someone cannot report that 2+2 = 4 because they cannot find someone to prove it is not? And if they could, they should be given the same amount of credence? They are reporting the facts and summarizing the conclusions that they drew from those facts. The problem is most people cannot separate the facts and data from the opinions and conclusions of others. sheep

The creator of the documentary did not even ask "why are there no pictures of the UFO with so many observers?". That's because he did not WANT to ask that question. He wanted to prove that there are UFO's. Biased, and BAD journalism, if you even can call it journalism.

Are you talking about the Phoenix incident? There are photos....just few good ones.

Please post one of the "good" ones. I've only seen flare photo's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 12:44pm #48
eestorblog
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Christmas
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maybe i shouldn't have said good ones? :-)
http://www.thephoenixlights.net/Photos.htm

some were taken before the famous night in question...


------------------
www.nyumbani.org

http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 12:59pm #49
GS
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eestorblog wrote:

maybe i shouldn't have said good ones? :-)
http://www.thephoenixlights.net/Photos.htm

some were taken before the famous night in question...

If those are the good ones ...

One of the captions said that the "orbs" always appear in the same spot. Is that where the air force usually run their sorties? Did the "journalist" follow this lead? No, because that was not his angle.

By the way, the crappy photo from Belgium with three blurry white lights and a red one in the middle was presented as the most convincing evidence in the movie. Desperation ...

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 1:06pm #50
eestorblog
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Christmas
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GS wrote:

eestorblog wrote:

maybe i shouldn't have said good ones? :-)
http://www.thephoenixlights.net/Photos.htm

some were taken before the famous night in question...

If those are the good ones ...

One of the captions said that the "orbs" always appear in the same spot. Is that where the air force usually run their sorties? Did the "journalist" follow this lead? No, because that was not his angle.

By the way, the crappy photo from Belgium with three blurry white lights and a red one in the middle was presented as the most convincing evidence in the movie. Desperation ...

Radar....not photos...


------------------
www.nyumbani.org

http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 1:07pm #51
Y_Po
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Zawy_y_go
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Journalist refused to interview a guy with a telescope. I don't think it's good journalism, it's just UFO journalism :)


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 1:16pm #52
eestorblog
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Y_Po wrote:

Journalist refused to interview a guy with a telescope. I don't think it's good journalism, it's just UFO journalism :)

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1997-06-26/news/...

Here is the wikipedia paragraph Y_Po fell in love with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Lights

Mitch Stanley, an amateur astronomer, observed the lights using a Dobsonian telescope giving 43x magnification. After observing the lights, he told his mother, who was present at the time, that the lights were aircraft.[17] According to Stanley, the lights were quite clearly individual airplanes; a companion who was with him recalled asking Stanley at the time what the lights were, and he said, "Planes". His account is contradicted by several thousand Phoenix residents without high powered telescopes, however, and no military or civilian aircraft formations were known to have been flying in the area at that time, which isn't unheard of.

Counterpoint:

http://www.thephoenixlights.net/Myths.htm

CESSNAS FLYING IN FORMATION (STAGED HOAX): After the Phoenix Lights event, a young man came forward and claimed that he viewed the Phoenix Lights using a Celestron Telescope and saw they were a fleet of Cessnas flying in formation. Despite thousands of witness reports to the contrary, local media focused on this singular report. First of all, to suggest that you could follow a moving Cessna with a Telescope is ridiculous. I personally own a telescope and there is no way you could follow a moving aircraft and focus in on it, especially at night. Based on this statement alone I would seriously question anything this witness had to say.

First you have to convince me that a group of pilots would be stupid enough and brazen enough to think they could pull off such an elaborate hoax without being caught. Every pilot knows that penetrating Class-B airspace (a 30-mile protective veil that surrounds every major airport in the country) without a proper ATC clearance, would get them into serious trouble. There is no way a fleet of Cessnas could fly silently, even with the engines running at idle, and avoid radar detection.

A fleet of aircraft entering Class-B airspace without communication or clearance would be considered a serious threat and they most certainly would have been forced down by military pilots. Once on the ground the perpetrators would be arrested, heavily fined and face possible prosecution and prison time. The FAA would permanently suspend their licenses due to the magnitude of the crime. They would be thrashed by the media and lynched by the public.

Why would any pilot risk everything, believing that they could successfully pull off such an elaborate hoax, get away with it, go home, watch the 10 o'clock news and have a nice laugh? Nobody ever got caught and nobody ever came forward to say "we did it." Private pilots would never take such a risk, commercial pilots would never risk their flying careers, and airline pilots are constantly monitored by ATC. They would never attempt such a thing especially with a plane loaded with passengers. Obviously this guy concocted the entire story to get his mug on the six o'clock news!


------------------
www.nyumbani.org

http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 1:21pm #53
Y_Po
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Zawy_y_go
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Last visit: Thu, 13 Feb 2014
Posts: 5648

Jornalist's job is to report not to debunk debunkers


Q: What would happen if you give 12V battery and two 6V light bulbs to Weir/Nelson?

A: They will wait 8 years for 12V➜6V DC-DC converter.

http://theeestory.com/topics/3687
http://theeestory.com/topics/2105
http://theeestory.com/topics/4835

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 1:36pm #54
ricinro
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eestorblog wrote:

maybe i shouldn't have said good ones? :-)
http://www.thephoenixlights.net/Photos.htm

some were taken before the famous night in question...

interesting. I noticed that they are looking south/southwest from an elevated viewpoint probably around the squaw peak/mountain preserve area. The daylight photo shows lights on and the nighttime photos show the same lights. What is interesting is the the two mountain ranges. In the foreground, to the left is South mountain and behind it is the sierra estrellas. Located at the southwestern end of the south mountain range are radio and TV antennas that blink. Taking photos will produce random sets of lights. The orbs are almost exactly where I would expect the antennas to be. I am not sure if these photos are intended to debunk or support UFOs but my sense is that they took photos and tried to understand what the lights were after developing the photos.

FYI, that same direction, fifty to 75 miles away are AF military reservations where training occurs nearly daily. Any activity would appear close to the horizon (Just above the mountains).


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 1:42pm #55
ricinro
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Posts: 3302

eestorblog wrote:

Y_Po wrote:

Journalist refused to interview a guy with a telescope. I don't think it's good journalism, it's just UFO journalism :)

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1997-06-26/news/...

Here is the wikipedia paragraph Y_Po fell in love with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Lights

Mitch Stanley, an amateur astronomer, observed the lights using a Dobsonian telescope giving 43x magnification. After observing the lights, he told his mother, who was present at the time, that the lights were aircraft.[17] According to Stanley, the lights were quite clearly individual airplanes; a companion who was with him recalled asking Stanley at the time what the lights were, and he said, "Planes". His account is contradicted by several thousand Phoenix residents without high powered telescopes, however, and no military or civilian aircraft formations were known to have been flying in the area at that time, which isn't unheard of.

Counterpoint:

http://www.thephoenixlights.net/Myths.htm

CESSNAS FLYING IN FORMATION (STAGED HOAX): After the Phoenix Lights event, a young man came forward and claimed that he viewed the Phoenix Lights using a Celestron Telescope and saw they were a fleet of Cessnas flying in formation. Despite thousands of witness reports to the contrary, local media focused on this singular report. First of all, to suggest that you could follow a moving Cessna with a Telescope is ridiculous. I personally own a telescope and there is no way you could follow a moving aircraft and focus in on it, especially at night. Based on this statement alone I would seriously question anything this witness had to say.

First you have to convince me that a group of pilots would be stupid enough and brazen enough to think they could pull off such an elaborate hoax without being caught. Every pilot knows that penetrating Class-B airspace (a 30-mile protective veil that surrounds every major airport in the country) without a proper ATC clearance, would get them into serious trouble. There is no way a fleet of Cessnas could fly silently, even with the engines running at idle, and avoid radar detection.

A fleet of aircraft entering Class-B airspace without communication or clearance would be considered a serious threat and they most certainly would have been forced down by military pilots. Once on the ground the perpetrators would be arrested, heavily fined and face possible prosecution and prison time. The FAA would permanently suspend their licenses due to the magnitude of the crime. They would be thrashed by the media and lynched by the public.

Why would any pilot risk everything, believing that they could successfully pull off such an elaborate hoax, get away with it, go home, watch the 10 o'clock news and have a nice laugh? Nobody ever got caught and nobody ever came forward to say "we did it." Private pilots would never take such a risk, commercial pilots would never risk their flying careers, and airline pilots are constantly monitored by ATC. They would never attempt such a thing especially with a plane loaded with passengers. Obviously this guy concocted the entire story to get his mug on the six o'clock news!

There is only one way to fly in this area. You can fly a north-south corredor over skyharbor within a prescribed altitude. I work at the tip of south mountian and I see small planes fly this all the time.


Thanks BTV for the blog

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 2:02pm #56
eestorblog
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http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/...

story about telescope boy 10 years after the event. i like how it ends. :-)


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http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 3:49pm #57
Tec
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There is a famous story of psychology lecturer who arranged, during a lecture, for an actor to come into the lecture and shoot him before rushing out. The gun was loaded with blanks, but the lecturer pretended to fall down dead.

After a few seconds he rose to his feet, explained it was a hoax and asked everyone (without discussing the event) to describe it in detail on paper.

The results were bizarre. Some described a stabbing, others described three attackers, still other had the assailant entering via a window and so on.

The conclusion of all this is that people are absolutely crap at describing emotionally loaded events.

I see no reason not to treat accounts of UFOs with the appropriate degree of scepticism. Nobody is actively lying of course. They all honestly believe they are telling the truth. The problem is that emotion can embroider the story without the teller realising it.

The effect has been demonstrated, and it seems to comply with my personal experience of unexpected and exciting events that I've been involved in. Doifferent people quite honestly see quite different events.

I am deeply suspicious, too, of the claim that there are people - policemen or soldiers or pilots - who are described in these UFO stories as 'trained observers'. No such animal exists. Their tales are as unreliable as those of all other humans. They have emotyions too!

Finally I am most surprised to find this rather sensationalised stuff being described as 'good journalism'. To my mind it is about as far from that as its possible to get. To me good journalism puts BOTH sides of the story, doesn't use thrilling music or wierd noises to emphasise the inexplicable nature of what is being described, and lets you decide for yourself whether the person telling the tale is trustworthy or not. Phrases like "A pilot for 30 years" is a clear attempt to manipulate your opinion of the individual for instance.

Perhaps we have different standards for the quality of journalism. Mine appear to be a lot more rigorous than yours, B.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 4:23pm #58
eestorblog
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Tec wrote:

There is a famous story of psychology lecturer who arranged, during a lecture, for an actor to come into the lecture and shoot him before rushing out. The gun was loaded with blanks, but the lecturer pretended to fall down dead.

After a few seconds he rose to his feet, explained it was a hoax and asked everyone (without discussing the event) to describe it in detail on paper.

The results were bizarre. Some described a stabbing, others described three attackers, still other had the assailant entering via a window and so on.

The conclusion of all this is that people are absolutely crap at describing emotionally loaded events.

I see no reason not to treat accounts of UFOs with the appropriate degree of scepticism. Nobody is actively lying of course. They all honestly believe they are telling the truth. The problem is that emotion can embroider the story without the teller realising it.

The effect has been demonstrated, and it seems to comply with my personal experience of unexpected and exciting events that I've been involved in. Doifferent people quite honestly see quite different events.

I am deeply suspicious, too, of the claim that there are people - policemen or soldiers or pilots - who are described in these UFO stories as 'trained observers'. No such animal exists. Their tales are as unreliable as those of all other humans. They have emotyions too!

Finally I am most surprised to find this rather sensationalised stuff being described as 'good journalism'. To my mind it is about as far from that as its possible to get. To me good journalism puts BOTH sides of the story, doesn't use thrilling music or wierd noises to emphasise the inexplicable nature of what is being described, and lets you decide for yourself whether the person telling the tale is trustworthy or not. Phrases like "A pilot for 30 years" is a clear attempt to manipulate your opinion of the individual for instance.

Perhaps we have different standards for the quality of journalism. Mine appear to be a lot more rigorous than yours, B.

I already pointed out that the documentary medium was not what i was holding up per se. It was Kean's 10 years of research focused on reliable, credible witnesses...and evidence.

In the key cases, there is radar evidence from multiple locations.

I find the skeptics response to these videos highly interesting.


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http://theeestory.com/topics/1949

I believe in miracles and UFO's.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 4:55pm #59
Tec
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...Kean's 10 years of research focused on reliable, credible witnesses...

My point exactly. How do you know someone is a reliable witness? Credibility proves nothing.

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Mon, 05 Sep 2011, 7:43pm #60
Shere Khaan
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Tec, take stephenville for example. A number of witnesses who saw something unidentifiable. If that's where the story ends then I agree, there can be no conclusion. What made this case interesting and a genuinely good "UFO" case is the FOIA of the FAA by 2 radar specialists who mapped out over a million points of data from 6 different radar stations. They tracked a large object across a number of stations travelling at a range of speeds with no transponder. Was it a flying saucer, or was it a super secret military craft, who knows?

Throw in the fact that the military scrambled the F16's and tried to cover it up, and that FAA radar data has subsequently been made exempt from FOIA requests, it certainly stirs the conspiracist in one.

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