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Thu, 15 Mar 2012, 6:50pm #1
EricOlthwaite
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The climate is changing, according to a new report from the Bureau of Meteorology (BoM) and the CSIRO. Days and nights are getting hotter, sea levels are rising, rainfall patterns are changing. Yawn. Heard it all before

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-14/phillips-...

Repetition is the key to remembering information and CSIRO and the BoM seem to have taken that message to heart. (So have I)

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012, 7:05pm #2
Lensman
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Okay, the earth is warming. Presumably you think that is bad, altho climate change is a constant part of human history, and it's sensible to suggest we should adapt to change as we have in the past.

But presuming you think we should try to stop nature from doing what's natural, do you have a suggestion as to what to do to stop or slow global warming? Or are you just...

http://secretagentman.squarespace.com/storage/dead%20horse.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1288565097090


We are the 99%. A better world is possible.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012, 7:06pm #3
supamark
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oh look, this thread again.... why?

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012, 7:24pm #4
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http://www.theeestory.com/topics/9939


The time has come to demonstrate that ZENN is on the right path Romney/Ryan 2012

Dick Weir will not go quietly in the night.... - FMA

My grandkids won't know what it means to put gas or diesel in a car.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012, 8:33pm #5
WalksOnDirt
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Lensman wrote:

But presuming you think we should try to stop nature from doing what's natural, do you have a suggestion as to what to do to stop or slow global warming?

Replace coal power plants with nuclear. Encourage the adoption of EVs. That should at least slow things down enough so that we can consider further measures later, if necessary.


Deasil is the right way to go.

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012, 8:37pm #6
EricOlthwaite
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Fibb :) wrote:

http://www.theeestory.com/topics/9939

Thanks I was looking for that

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Thu, 15 Mar 2012, 8:42pm #7
EricOlthwaite
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Lensman wrote:

Okay, the earth is warming. Presumably you think that is bad, altho climate change is a constant part of human history, and it's sensible to suggest we should adapt to change as we have in the past.

But presuming you think we should try to stop nature from doing what's natural, do you have a suggestion as to what to do to stop or slow global warming? Or are you just...

http://secretagentman.squarespace.com/storage/dead%20horse.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1288565097090

I know you have accepted that the planet is warming there are others who still refuse to believe that this is happening.

Suggested Action:
Cap and trade or GHG tax in conjunction with making the research for alternatives a top priority, as CO2 is the primary driver for dangerous climate change.

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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 12:13am #8
Lensman
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WalksOnDirt wrote:

Replace coal power plants with nuclear. Encourage the adoption of EVs.

That's a plan I'd be very happy to support!

That's what I find most puzzling about the Catastrophic Anthropic Global Warming alarmists. It seems as though all they ever want to do is argue over the causes of global warming, instead of being advocates for things that practically everyone would support-- like measures to reduce pollution and transition to power from Green sources, such as nuclear.

EricOlthwaite wrote:

...CO2 is the primary driver for dangerous climate change.

I guess you didn't get the memo. Even Al Gore now admits that's not true.

Last edited Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 2:21am by Lensman


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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 1:51am #9
EricOlthwaite
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Lensman wrote:

I guess you didn't get the memo. Even Al Gore now admits that's not true.

I dont hear much from Al Gore, What we haven't got anywhere is any serious science to show that this is not the case.

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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 2:14am #10
EricOlthwaite
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Lensman wrote:

WalksOnDirt wrote:

Replace coal power plants with nuclear. Encourage the adoption of EVs.

That's a plan I'd be very happy to support!

That's what I find most puzzling the Catastrophic Anthropic Global Warming alarmists. It seems as though all they ever want to do is argue over the causes of global warming,

Why should this be puzzling, it is most important that the cause of the current warming is resolved as the denial that this is related to human GHG emissions is being used as a reason for the US not taking any meaningful action to reduce GHG emissions.

Lensman wrote:

instead of being advocates for things that practically everyone would support-- like measures to reduce pollution and transition to power from Green sources, such as nuclear.

I'm fine with that, go nuclear in countries that can be relied upon to handle the industry safely and have the financial resources to properly decommission the plants and safely store the waste for the required time periods.

Some advanced economies can at this time be trusted to do this. Can you say the same for countries on your border ie Mexico? that's not even approaching the middle east.

Nukes will have to be a part of the answer for some countries however this is not a desirable solution in many other countries outside of the US.

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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 3:00am #11
Lensman
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EricOlthwaite wrote:

Lensman wrote:

That's what I find most puzzling the Catastrophic Anthropic Global Warming alarmists. It seems as though all they ever want to do is argue over the causes of global warming,

Why should this be puzzling, it is most important that the cause of the current warming is resolved as the denial that this is related to human GHG emissions is being used as a reason for the US not taking any meaningful action to reduce GHG emissions.

No industrialized nation is going to ruin its own economy by taking draconian action to limit carbon emissions. This will become even more true as the kindergarten-level argument that CO2 is the "cause" of global warming continues to be eroded, and discredited even more than it already has been.

Your singling out the USA here is wholly inappropriate. Some EU countries have agreed to limit carbon emissions, but this has proven to be just lip service. Germany and Denmark have discovered, the hard way, what happens when you actually try to use solar and wind power as a significant part of electrical grid power. Reality has finally sunk in, as was inevitable (and predicted by me), so they are now cutting back on their reliance on those unreliable power sources.

No industrialized country has made significant inroads into reducing CO2, and boom growth countries such as China and India are rapidly increasing their CO2 output.

Any serious discussion of reducing air pollution (whether or not that is a significant contributor to climate change) has to take into account that people will never voluntarily give up their refrigerators, televisions, and electric shavers.


We are the 99%. A better world is possible.

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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 3:13am #12
Lensman
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EricOlthwaite wrote:

...go nuclear in countries that can be relied upon to handle the industry safely and have the financial resources to properly decommission the plants and safely store the waste for the required time periods.

Some advanced economies can at this time be trusted to do this. Can you say the same for countries on your border ie Mexico? that's not even approaching the middle east.

Nukes will have to be a part of the answer for some countries however this is not a desirable solution in many other countries outside of the US.

I agree that fission power is not an ideal solution, especially in politically unstable countries, but 4th generation thorium reactors can be constructed in such a way that will minimize the amount of nuclear weapons-grade fissionables created by the reaction. Of course this still doesn't make them really safe, but considering the effect on worldwide public health over the decades since commercial nuclear power was first used, nuclear power plants have proven much, much safer than coal-fired power plants.


We are the 99%. A better world is possible.

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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 4:24am #13
EricOlthwaite
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Lensman wrote:

EricOlthwaite wrote:

...go nuclear in countries that can be relied upon to handle the industry safely and have the financial resources to properly decommission the plants and safely store the waste for the required time periods.

Some advanced economies can at this time be trusted to do this. Can you say the same for countries on your border ie Mexico? that's not even approaching the middle east.

Nukes will have to be a part of the answer for some countries however this is not a desirable solution in many other countries outside of the US.

I agree that fission power is not an ideal solution, especially in politically unstable countries, but 4th generation thorium reactors can be constructed in such a way that will minimize the amount of nuclear weapons-grade fissionables created by the reaction. Of course this still doesn't make them really safe, but considering the effect on worldwide public health over the decades since commercial nuclear power was first used, nuclear power plants have proven much, much safer than coal-fired power plants.

Yes in some countries, we do not differ too much here.

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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 6:04am #14
EricOlthwaite
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Lensman wrote:

EricOlthwaite wrote:

Lensman wrote:

That's what I find most puzzling the Catastrophic Anthropic Global Warming alarmists. It seems as though all they ever want to do is argue over the causes of global warming,

Why should this be puzzling, it is most important that the cause of the current warming is resolved as the denial that this is related to human GHG emissions is being used as a reason for the US not taking any meaningful action to reduce GHG emissions.

No industrialized nation is going to ruin its own economy by taking draconian action to limit carbon emissions. This will become even more true as the kindergarten-level argument that CO2 is the "cause" of global warming continues to be eroded, and discredited even more than it already has been.

Kindergarten-level physics tells us that CO2 is a GHG and now the sceptics are starting to accept that the basic physics tells us that the increase in C02 levels are responsible for at least a part of the present warming.

As we have discussed before the more mature level argument is over the quantities of positive feedback that are a part of our climate system, this is definitely not a Kindergarten-level discussion. This is a just an attempt to belittle the discussion.

Again I post this
http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm09/lectures/lectu...

Now again I ask where is the evidence that CO2 levels are not relevant to our climate system? Where is the science to show this, where are the models that can show this?

I continually see shifting arguments (plant not warming now it is), misrepresentation of the published studies, misleading statements (COS2 is a harmless colourless gas etc), hidden agendas (Heartland Institute) and other nonsense but never any solid evidence that the sun cycles, galactic motions or anything else is responsible for the current warming.

And then there are the Sceptics with credentials such as this:

Richard S. Lindzen

sourcewatch.org wrote:


On Tobacco

In a 2001 profile in Newsweek, journalist Fred Guterl wrote that Lindzen "clearly relishes the role of naysayer. He'll even expound on how weakly lung cancer is linked to cigarette smoking."[14] James Hansen recalls meeting Lindzen whilst testifying before the Vice President's Climate Task Force: "I considered asking Lindzen if he still believed there was no connection between smoking and lung cancer. He had been a witness for tobacco companies decades earlier, questioning the reliability of statistical connections between smoking and health problems. But I decided that would be too confrontational. When I met him at a later conference, I did ask that question, and was surprised by his response: He began rattling off all the problems with the date relating smoking to helath problems, which was closely analagous to his views of climate data."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Rich...

Lensman wrote:

Your singling out the USA here is wholly inappropriate. Some EU countries have agreed to limit carbon emissions, but this has proven to be just lip service. Germany and Denmark have discovered, the hard way, what happens when you actually try to use solar and wind power as a significant part of electrical grid power. Reality has finally sunk in, as was inevitable (and predicted by me), so they are now cutting back on their reliance on those unreliable power sources.

No industrialized country has made significant inroads into reducing CO2, and boom growth countries such as China and India are rapidly increasing their CO2 output.

Any serious discussion of reducing air pollution (whether or not that is a significant contributor to climate change) has to take into account that people will never voluntarily give up their refrigerators, televisions, and electric shavers.

It is entirely appropriate to single out the US in this debate, the US is still the worlds largest economy and has a greater influence than any other single economy. Their simply will be no world wide coordinated action without the US. However if the US were to lead most of the worlds nations would be willing to take part in a global response.

That's Kindergarten over for tonight.

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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 8:31am #15
cechilders
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I think we do not have enough Global Warming threads. Please start more!

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Fri, 16 Mar 2012, 8:39am #16
EricOlthwaite
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cechilders wrote:

I think we do not have enough Global Warming threads. Please start more!

I promise no more, once we have a PR from EEStor.

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